Music Thieves, Industry Destruction, and More | Mailbag #2

00:00:00:05 – 00:00:07:09

Chris

And everything that you say is recorded now. So don’t say anything ridiculous or crazy. Don’t say anything that’s going to get you canceled.

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Steve

I’ll do my best.

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Chris

How you guys doing?

00:00:10:10 – 00:00:13:18

Steve

Good, good, good. Thursday, Good week so far.

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Mike

Seems to be dealing with a lot of tickets, I think. Steve and Colette. Yeah. We have a support team of two hardworking folks, and we just did a we did a promotion recently, and that that always brings in a bunch of people hiring and asking. So kudos to the support team. I mean, you know, they’re the unsung heroes of some of what we do.

00:00:38:00 – 00:00:39:07

Steve

A lot of the questions that we get.

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Steve

I mean, it’s going to be a lot of similar stuff to what we discuss here on today’s podcast because we get questions from everything regarding technical support to bug reports to purchasing questions, and then also questions like how do I how do I make contacts in the industry and other things that are similar to the kinds of things that people wrote in about.

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Steve

So I’m looking forward to diving into a lot of those.

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Chris

Well, you guys ready to start?

00:01:05:11 – 00:01:06:18

Mike

Yeah. Yeah.

00:01:06:20 – 00:01:17:01

Chris

Welcome to Orchestrated the Musio podcast, where we discuss the past, present and future of music creation to explore exactly what it means to be a musician in the modern era. I’m Chris Hayzel.

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Mike

I’m Mike Patti.

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Steve

And I’m Steve Goldshein.

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Chris

And today on the Pod is part two of our Mailbag episode. A few weeks ago, we answered your questions about creating music, navigating the business, whether or not the music school is even worth it. Your questions were so good, in fact, that we weren’t actually able to get through all of them. So this week we’re picking up where we left off.

00:01:39:03 – 00:02:04:09

Chris

So if you submitted a question and we weren’t able to answer it last time, we hope to be able to get to it this time around. But before we dive in, you can follow us on Instagram at MUZIO and subscribe on YouTube at Museo Dot official for more content. And if you’re a music creator looking for great virtual instruments, be sure to head over to Museo dot com to get over 1800 top of the line virtual instruments completely free for 30 days.

00:02:04:14 – 00:02:26:08

Chris

And last but certainly not least, if you like this episode and you want to hear more like it and don’t forget to rate it, review it, share it with your friends. You know, we’re still a fledgling podcast and every little bit helps. And if you have any questions about music, the business, the creative process, anything. Email them to us at orchestrated at Museo dot com.

00:02:26:10 – 00:02:32:03

Chris

So without further ado, let’s get to it. Steve, would you like to do the honors?

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Steve

Yeah. We’re going to pick up with a question about protecting your songs and compositions.

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Steve

From other people making money off them. The question comes from Peter S, who is a Canadian.

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Steve

Amateur songwriter and composer, a hobbyist sample collector looking to practically protect his songs.

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Steve

Compositions and performances from other people making money off of them after releasing them on a service such as Distro Kid. I realize there are tens of thousands of songs released each day. The chances of.

00:03:03:10 – 00:03:04:22

Steve

Making any money off them are slim to.

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Steve

None, but would like to at least be able to protect myself against someone else. Stealing my original work, making money from it.

00:03:11:16 – 00:03:13:19

Steve

I’m aware that copyright only requires that you.

00:03:13:19 – 00:03:19:21

Steve

Write down a song in some fashion, but it’s proving that you did so is the trick. So what is the best way to.

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Steve

Record a copyright.

00:03:20:23 – 00:03:33:05

Steve

In case of a later dispute? If there is a dispute, what can I do? Short of launching a lawsuit? So this is a very deep question, Very, very nuanced question. Yeah. I mean.

00:03:33:06 – 00:03:54:05

Chris

Isn’t there isn’t there like there’s a way to submit for copyright? Like, you’re not just writing it down, but like, actually submit with, like a copyright office that they keep record of what you’ve done, what you haven’t done, registering your music with a company like BMI or ASKAP or something like that keeps a record of it as well.

00:03:54:10 – 00:03:57:20

Chris

Is there is there more to it than that? Have I been doing it wrong this whole time? Yeah.

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Mike

I mean, first of all, I would say you’re much more likely to make money from a track than to have somebody steal it. If you’re worried about people stealing your music. I mean, first of all, I just don’t think that that’s something that’s worth worrying about because it’s just such a rare thing, especially if you’re just starting out.

00:04:18:15 – 00:04:36:18

Mike

I mean, if you’re if you’re a big time producer who’s making songs that are making millions of dollars a month, that’s a different story. But I remember I had a okay, this is I had a piano teacher and my piano teacher was an old school composer. He was just self-published. And so he would literally just, you know, write out his manuscripts.

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Mike

He didn’t have a printer or anything. He would write it out like this, and then he’d put it in an envelope and then he’d write a self-addressed envelope to himself.

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Chris

Yeah, it’s called a Poor Man’s Copyright.

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Mike

Yeah, exactly. And he would just have it sent to himself, and then he would just not open it. Yeah, and we have the date on it, you know, so that in case there was a situation you can prove and you say, look at this mail that I have an open from this date. You know, nowadays it’s the moment you create something on your hard disk, it’s instantly by copyright.

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Mike

I don’t I’m not a copyright lawyer, but it it is instantly copyright written. It’s done. It’s it’s yours. So technically, like, there’s nothing physical that you have to do.

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Steve

I mean, yeah, I’m not a copyright lawyer either. I have.

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Steve

I know that there are a lot of services that work with organizations. I mean, you mentioned distro kid. There’s also things like.

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Steve

There are various.

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Steve

Organizations that work with the pros as cap and BMI, the publishing rights organizations, and that it’s largely their job to make sure all of that stuff is properly paid out for and licensed and registered and done. But for for the sake of protecting yourself, the best thing you can do is be organized. And yes, having having a system of some kind, whether it’s that old school method of mailing yourself a copy or simply just having it, having the files rendered and have all the right metadata.

00:06:04:21 – 00:06:19:17

Steve

Because when you balance a track out of logic or whatever you’re done, you can you can add all of that information to the track about your composer. The the year, the the date, the all of the notes that you need to do to in order to make sure it’s organized.

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Steve

And then keeping a.

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Steve

Spreadsheet for yourself and keeping some kind of of meticulous record, which I know is not the most fun, creative thing. But if you do, I mean, this comes back to a lot of what we were talking about on the last episode of this and again further back with the episode with Bryan talking about treating yourself as a business and making sure that as a composer, if you or a music creator, if you’re trying to make money off of what you’re what you’re creating, being organized about it and having all of that information so that you know, and you can reference what you’ve done because it’s.

00:06:54:16 – 00:06:55:19

Steve

Especially if you’re if you’re.

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Steve

Creating at the rate that you know, you’re creating for music libraries or other things where you’re putting out an enormous volume, or if you’re a producer making a lot of beats and you’re just putting out tons and tons of beats, it’s really hard to keep track because no.

00:07:10:02 – 00:07:13:12

Steve

Way did I do that. yeah, I did that. That was, you know, three years ago.

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Steve

We don’t, you know, remember all the things. So it’s really important to make sure that you have that information at your at your disposal as you create it.

00:07:23:06 – 00:07:43:22

Mike

So but then if you do see a violation, the best thing to do, you want to go lawsuits and all of that stuff. You can write a letter. They call it a cease and desist. You can you know, and if you know the person who has is making money off of your music. Well, first of all, congratulations, because that means that you’re like, you know, it’s like valuable.

00:07:44:00 – 00:07:51:16

Mike

But, you know, you would you would find find the the person who’s doing that and just say, hey, I see that you’re doing this. You know, please take it down.

00:07:51:20 – 00:08:09:08

Chris

Yeah, I think I think what you said, Mike, about, you know, the chances of somebody stealing your music to make money off of it are actually quite slim. But here are a few things that you can do. I just looked it up. Just go to and this is where I’ve registered my music. Go to copyright dot gov slash registration.

00:08:09:10 – 00:08:32:10

Chris

If you go through and you register all of your music, like let’s say you recorded an album before you released that album register, it was Copyright Dot gov. Every song, you know, the contents of that song. I think you even upload an MP three or something like that. Yeah. And as you do that, as you release more music, it’ll keep it under the same name and the same person.

00:08:32:15 – 00:08:56:19

Chris

So if it’s registered there, you know you’re good. Also, I think, you know, the whole point of copyright is basically to say, Yeah, I was the first person to come up with this idea. I was the first person to create this music. All of the release states when you distribute music through distro kid and and or any kind of other distribution channel, it’s all recorded on the date that it was released is recorded.

00:08:56:21 – 00:09:14:03

Chris

So if somebody else tries to release your music or something that sounds exactly like your music and for some reason you want to send them a cease and desist and you need proof of that, you can point to the fact that you actually were the first person to publish this music. If you want to be extra careful, do a poor man’s copyright.

00:09:14:03 – 00:09:29:20

Chris

Mail it to yourself. Don’t open it, Put it in your closet, don’t touch it. You know, but there are all of these things that you that are in place sort of automatically now with just the way that music creation and distribution and all of those things work that sort of cover you.

00:09:29:22 – 00:09:33:05

Steve

Yeah, good advice there. I think this is this is a really good question.

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Steve

Because it leads to a lot of it speaks to a lot of other things about the music industry and monetizing music in general.

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Steve

And this is one of the many.

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Steve

Ways to make money from music is by just putting it out there as music to be consumed and listened to and paid for. There are a lot of other ways to make money from music. And there’s there’s another great question in here about how to get get the music selected so far. So Jim C asks, Besides dumb luck, how might a new composer tilt the odds in his or her favor when trying to get selected for music for film, TV and video games?

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Steve

And this is.

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Steve

This is another.

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Steve

Great question because.

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Steve

Dumb luck so a lot of it like let’s just let’s be realistic.

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Steve

About that you know because in some in some fashion it’s about who you know and what your career has led you to throughout there. And there’s always a matter of an amount of luck involved in there. But we talked about it a lot in the last episode. It’s all it all comes down to relationships and who you know and who they know and who they can introduce you to.

00:10:38:13 – 00:11:05:15

Chris

And there’s a theme if you go back and listen to every single episode of this podcast, save for maybe the very first one, but there is a theme, a running theme that it’s all about relationships and who, you know, one thing that was an interesting point that came up in JB’s episode, and if you haven’t listened to that episode, go back and check it out because it’s really good, even though I screwed up the audio on it.

00:11:05:17 – 00:11:36:07

Chris

But JB sort of turns that, you know, it’s who, you know, phrase on his head and he says it’s about who knows you? Are you the person that people are talking about in the rooms when they’re talking about their projects? You know, Yeah, if you know a lot of people, that’s a good thing. But if you’ve worked with them and you’ve showed up and you’ve been a pleasant person to work with and you turn things around, you know, relatively quickly and easily and it was good work, then they’re going to be talking about you.

00:11:36:12 – 00:11:42:02

Chris

But yeah, it’s a theme. It’s a theme in all of our episodes, relationships. It’s a relationships game.

00:11:42:04 – 00:11:45:07

Mike

Yeah, I agree. I mean, that’s.

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Chris

Like, how many times can we say it?

00:11:47:03 – 00:12:07:18

Mike

Yeah, yeah, we do get this go. I mean, it’s worth, I guess, repeating. I mean, it’s all about like, you know, we’re going, going to the places where people are hiring and right. There’s a, there’s a temptation to want to hang around with a lot of composers. I think as as music creators, like we’ll go to GDC and all the composers are there hanging out and it’s like, okay, that’s fine.

00:12:07:19 – 00:12:25:07

Mike

But like, don’t don’t spend your time doing that. Like, be the only composer in the room. I don’t I’ve seen I like when I hear stories of, like my much more successful friends, it’s like they have these stories where, I just, I decided to like, put all of my money into getting a membership at the Soho House.

00:12:25:12 – 00:12:48:00

Mike

It’s everything I had to make myself look like I was an important person. And this person got there and they were just hanging around and try to, you know, casually network with people and or invite people to like, Hey, I’ll meet you at the Soho House. You know, I don’t know if that’s how it works anymore, but this person is a very successful composer right now and they’ve developed a lot of great relationships.

00:12:48:00 – 00:12:56:17

Mike

And, you know, it’s doing is doing kind of crazy stuff that’s a little bit outside of the box. It seems to always be the theme that I hear.

00:12:56:18 – 00:13:37:04

Chris

Yeah. And also also collaborate, you know, collaborate with people. The thing about JB is that he was working with people on projects when he was in school for composing and, you know, they sort of like rising tides raise all ships like as each of them were sort of advancing in their careers. They knew each other and they had worked together and, you know, like finding people to collaborate with, even if it’s not necessarily a paid job or necessarily like a big job that you want know on a hit TV show, even finding small projects work on.

00:13:37:06 – 00:13:41:23

Chris

Just continuing to do that, that’s going to also be a great relationship builder.

00:13:42:01 – 00:13:43:19

Steve

It s it’s more about developing.

00:13:43:19 – 00:13:55:00

Steve

A career than finding that one job. There’s really a there’s a tendency, I think, when looking at this industry from the outside in to think, it just takes one big break.

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Steve

You just got to write one hit song, you just got to write what, you just got to score one big film.

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Steve

You just got to get one big triple-A game project and then that’ll that’s it. That’ll set you up for life.

00:14:07:03 – 00:14:09:12

Steve

And that’s not.

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Steve

Necessarily how it happens. I mean, that’s I mean, I’ll go as far to say that’s necessarily not how it happens because in order to get it takes years and years to become an overnight success. It takes millions of failed unfinished songs to write that first big hit.

00:14:24:15 – 00:14:27:06

Steve

And sometimes it takes a really long time where.

00:14:27:06 – 00:14:40:11

Steve

If you’re going the route of putting music out there and hoping for it to become licensed for a project someday, that may take decades. I mean, what happened with with that song running up that hill from Stranger Things.

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Steve

That was you know, that was a fairly you know, it was a.

00:14:44:03 – 00:14:57:11

Steve

It was well-received when it came out. But then it wasn’t for decades plural later, that is, that it became a global phenomenon because it was picked up for a TV show that was already huge. You know, it was the and.

00:14:57:13 – 00:15:00:06

Steve

So the the steps involved there.

00:15:00:06 – 00:15:10:00

Steve

Were write the song, put it out there, have it be distributed and then sit on it until this show got to its fourth season and was a huge phenomenon. So yeah.

00:15:10:01 – 00:15:12:15

Steve

When you’re creating music, that’s a collaborative.

00:15:12:15 – 00:15:36:07

Steve

Part of some other creative media, it can take a really long time for the media itself to develop to the point where it’s big. Nothing, nothing about this happens overnight. Nothing happens where you just put the song out there and everyone immediately hears it the next day and everyone loves it. And then right after that, it’s playing in every club and every scene of every movie in show.

00:15:36:07 – 00:15:42:02

Steve

And it takes a long, long time for for these things to happen. So when you approach.

00:15:42:02 – 00:15:42:10

Steve

This kind.

00:15:42:10 – 00:16:00:23

Steve

Of career, if you’re just getting started, don’t be chasing that one big thing. B be treated as the the career that you develop is going to be the many projects that you do over the course of it. And if you and you have to enjoy the process, if you’re just looking for a way to get, you know.

00:16:01:01 – 00:16:02:08

Steve

Nobody gets into music.

00:16:02:08 – 00:16:03:18

Steve

As a way to get rich quick.

00:16:03:20 – 00:16:06:13

Steve

And if you and if you do, I got some.

00:16:06:13 – 00:16:09:18

Steve

Bad news for you.

00:16:09:20 – 00:16:36:07

Chris

Now that’s a that’s a that’s a really great way of putting it, Steve. And also, you know, not only will building your career over time set that foundation that you’re talking about, but also it’ll help you hone your craft. You know, as you’re working on this, you’re going to grow and change as a music creator, as a composer, as a musician, as an artist, or whatever it is that you’re doing, you’re going to grow and change.

00:16:36:07 – 00:16:45:22

Chris

And the best way to do that is through actively making music, actively working on projects, actively building your craft.

00:16:46:00 – 00:17:26:14

Mike

And I’ll leave it with this, maybe a practical or advice that you can or tactic that you can use that I’ve seen a lot of composers do, and our friend Christopher Lenox, who we know, I used to work for him a lot, incredibly talented composer and just really smart with business. And one of the things that I’ve seen him do often was, you know, there might be a project and I mean, this is something if you can afford it and do it, you know, hire, hire an orchestra, you know, for for 15 minutes in, you know, Bratislava or, you know, one of the pick up orchestras in there’s one in Scotland called clockwork that does

00:17:26:14 – 00:17:46:18

Mike

1. They do these open orchestra sessions. And you can you can do a demo for fairly inexpensively. And I’ve seen Chris do this like he we did something years ago for a marvel movie I helped him orchestrate, but he wrote this music and we had the orchestra play it and it turned out really great and he submitted it.

00:17:46:19 – 00:18:02:20

Mike

He never got the exact gig that he was going for, which was one of the main studio features. But he got a TV show out of it, which was really cool. And you know, you never know where it’s going to lead. So it’s like it definitely catches the attention of people. They’re like, Wow, you know, I was like, really?

00:18:02:20 – 00:18:20:09

Mike

You did all this, you know? And he had a video taken of it and everything, you know, and submitted like he so that works. It’s like, wow, here’s somebody who really went off above and beyond. And even Brian Ralston did this. He submitted to do The Lord of the Rings television series series, which ended up going to Bear McCreary.

00:18:20:11 – 00:18:39:23

Mike

But I know that Brian got some contacts and other things out of it. It just it definitely gets You said, besides dumb luck, how do you tilt the odds in your favor? Well, it’s doing stuff like that. So yeah, yeah, I think that I’ve seen it work for people. So if you’re willing to be if you’re not too risk averse, I think that’s it’s worth it.

00:18:40:01 – 00:18:45:07

Chris

More importantly, though, there’s a Lord of the Rings television series. Yeah.

00:18:45:07 – 00:18:46:21

Steve

Yeah, you have. It’s an enormous power.

00:18:46:22 – 00:18:47:13

Mike

Brings up power.

00:18:47:18 – 00:18:49:03

Chris

man. Rings of power. What’s it.

00:18:49:03 – 00:18:51:00

Steve

On? Yeah, it’s on Amazon Prime.

00:18:51:02 – 00:18:52:15

Chris

no, I had no idea.

00:18:52:17 – 00:18:55:05

Steve

you’ve been missing out, so I.

00:18:55:07 – 00:18:58:03

Mike

Yeah, there’s mixed reviews, let’s say that.

00:18:58:05 – 00:18:59:06

Steve

Not about the music. So.

00:18:59:06 – 00:19:01:09

Mike

Yeah, the music’s great. Yeah.

00:19:01:11 – 00:19:07:09

Steve

Next question here from Paul. See which the film and television music industry seems to be slowly.

00:19:07:09 – 00:19:08:22

Steve

Reducing itself to the two.

00:19:08:22 – 00:19:10:18

Steve

Tiered structure of A-list.

00:19:10:18 – 00:19:14:12

Steve

Composers and those who write slash go straight for them.

00:19:14:13 – 00:19:16:15

Steve

The latter’s compensation is often.

00:19:16:15 – 00:19:17:21

Steve

Unsustainable and their.

00:19:17:21 – 00:19:40:18

Steve

Opportunity for career growth severely stunted. How can this situation be remedied? And if it isn’t, does it portend the industry’s eventual self-destruction? Good question. Little doom and gloom, but what a great question. I, I have some thoughts on this one. But Mike, I know that you, as someone who has worked with with assistant composers.

00:19:40:22 – 00:19:44:12

Steve

Directly and I’ve been the assistant composer not to you, but to others.

00:19:44:12 – 00:20:04:19

Mike

So yeah, I don’t know if that. Well, I understand, Paul. See where you’re coming from. I’ve seen a lot of no name composers getting some big things now, so there’s. I don’t know. I don’t know if I agree with the premise. I see there was a trend where you had the famous composer and then like 20 people working for that composer.

00:20:04:19 – 00:20:25:00

Mike

And I think there’s a trend away from that. At least that’s that’s how that’s how I’ve seen things. There still is the big, you know, movies where you even if you get a project, you’re going to put a team together. Yeah, no one can do this alone. Is is not possible anymore. Yeah. So even if you’re a no name who just gets an awesome project, you better get your team ready.

00:20:25:04 – 00:20:51:15

Mike

Yeah. Chris Beck talks about this. He did. He was on a podcast figure where it was, but he’s he’s all about like putting your team there. You get the project immediately get your team together. I got a project. I’m working on a Disney project for the parks. It’s been a while. It’s been about a year since I’ve written anything, but I’m going back to it and I sign the contract and the first thing I did was call up three people that I know I’ve worked with in the past and be like, You ready?

00:20:51:15 – 00:21:02:14

Mike

Let’s go. And you just get them like, you know, and you’re going to have people that do arranging the orchestration, do mock ups and stuff. So I don’t if that answered your question, but like, I don’t know if that’s totally true.

00:21:02:15 – 00:21:11:13

Chris

I think I’m right there with you. I’m not sure I agree that that is necessarily the case or that it’s any different than it’s been in the past. Like.

00:21:11:15 – 00:21:19:02

Mike

Yeah, I mean, that’s always would be the case where like the popular guy gets he’s hot and then they have to just do the work.

00:21:19:04 – 00:21:20:04

Chris

Yeah.

00:21:20:06 – 00:21:22:03

Mike

But that’s it’s short lived.

00:21:22:05 – 00:21:45:00

Chris

There are always, there will always be the John Williams is or the really, really, really big in-demand composers that seem to be dominating the entire film TV space and they’re going to be around. But also like the movie, where is it? Everything everywhere, all at once. The people that did the music for that movie. It was a band, right?

00:21:45:02 – 00:22:03:13

Chris

Yeah. So. And they were up for an Oscar for best score, weren’t they? Yeah. So, like, you know, there’s I actually see the world as opening up and becoming maybe a little bit more accessible for composers and for people who aren’t even necessarily composers to kind of dip their toand.

00:22:03:14 – 00:22:21:18

Mike

Yeah, I mean, I will say, yeah, but if you are starting out and you get an opportunity to write additional music, I mean go for it. Yeah, I think it’s a great way to learn, you know, because then you’re not in the hot seat. There’s this a different there’s being in the hot seat which is less musical and then there’s not being in the hot seat, which is you’ve got to actually compose music.

00:22:21:20 – 00:22:40:02

Mike

And so it depends on what you want. If you feel like you’re more of that personality, that you can like you’re good with people and you really can make people feel at ease and you’re good in meetings when you’re in a like, if you’re working on a big project, there’s like a boardroom with 12 people, you know, can you be can you make everyone feel confident that you’ve got it handled, you know?

00:22:40:04 – 00:22:49:15

Mike

But if you’re not that personality type, that’s okay. Maybe you maybe you’re better suited to be the one who makes that person look good, you know? Yeah. Which, you know.

00:22:49:17 – 00:22:56:06

Chris

Yeah. And I, I would say it, it actually might be better to start out as someone else’s. Like, as part. Yes.

00:22:56:08 – 00:22:57:04

Mike

I think that’s.

00:22:57:04 – 00:22:58:08

Chris

Yeah. I mean, don’t get.

00:22:58:08 – 00:23:15:19

Mike

To do that. And a lot of these guys, I mean like I really I’m a fan of lawn ball. I think he’s he’s super talented. I love the way that he runs things. He see I don’t know the details, but he seems to run things really well and he treats everybody with respect. And, you know, all the composers that worked with him seem to have really enjoyed the process.

00:23:15:19 – 00:23:25:22

Mike

And I know a lot of composers also share the cue sheet. There’s some that don’t. There’s some that do. It’s it’s not right or wrong. It’s but if you can get cue sheet, that’s pretty cool.

00:23:26:00 – 00:23:27:13

Steve

By cue sheet you mean royalties.

00:23:27:14 – 00:23:56:06

Mike

That’s yeah. Cue sheet. Right. Do we know a cue sheet is. Sorry Tucci Cue sheet is when you know if you’re part of ASKAP or BMI and your music is in a movie or television show, they will they will track the performance of that movie or television show all over the world. And then you would get they through their calculations, you would get a check in the mail every every quarter or so based off of those performances.

00:23:56:06 – 00:23:57:02

Mike

So.

00:23:57:04 – 00:23:59:09

Steve

Yeah, that’s that’s one of the main ways that television.

00:23:59:09 – 00:24:09:12

Steve

Composers get paid is from the ongoing royalties of the cue sheet And sharing that cue sheet with their assistance in their team is an option that some composers do.

00:24:09:14 – 00:24:16:07

Steve

Yeah, I’m with you Mike. I think the the there are I have a lot of thoughts about about this question because I, I did some additional.

00:24:16:07 – 00:24:33:03

Steve

Writing work in the early stages of my career. I have friends who have gone that route and they’ve been additional writers. They’ve done various functions as team members of composers, whether it’s orchestrating, arranging or other type of assistant work.

00:24:33:05 – 00:24:35:09

Steve

There was an article that came out.

00:24:35:11 – 00:24:47:17

Steve

About a year ago about the the the assistant industry, and it talked about how the term assistant in this industry is, is often is something that.

00:24:47:21 – 00:24:50:00

Steve

The title kind of belies the.

00:24:50:00 – 00:25:16:07

Steve

Position whereas that’s in in a lot of the corporate world the title of assistant means you’re not doing that much be you’re doing important stuff, but not not to the level of other people, whereas assistant composers are often people with advanced degrees and extensive musical training and have been playing piano for 20 years and have all this orchestration knowledge and are doing really important high level things.

00:25:16:09 – 00:25:18:13

Steve

But the.

00:25:18:15 – 00:25:19:14

Steve

You touched on that earlier.

00:25:19:14 – 00:25:54:12

Steve

Mike, that the idea of trying to do an entire film or TV project as a one person show is just completely ludicrous. It’s not possible because there’s too much to do to compose the music, to produce and orchestrate the music to set up a recording session, to get to run a recording session. I mean, there’s a reason that recording studios employ multiple people to do set up and tear down and make sure that all that you know, there’s just not enough time or human bandwidth for one person to do everything that is needed to get music ready for a production for a project.

00:25:54:15 – 00:25:55:13

Steve

The same way that there.

00:25:55:13 – 00:26:08:00

Steve

Isn’t enough bandwidth for one person to make a TV show by themselves or to to make a film completely by themselves. There’s always a huge team of people. That’s why the credits for movies are so long.

00:26:08:05 – 00:26:39:21

Chris

I’ll say, I all of the projects that I worked on, I worked on as a one person composing like I was the person in the hot seat. And I was also 22 years old and I didn’t know what the hell I was doing. Right, right. And so like, all I was doing was making music. I fell into it by accident and I suddenly found myself sitting across from like, you know, a big time television producer threatening to sue me for no reason.

00:26:39:23 – 00:27:06:00

Chris

So to jump into a situation like that, you might find yourself in an area that’s a little bit more than you were prepared to handle. And so I think, you know, had I known that I could go write additional music and sort of, you know, learn the lay of the land that way and not have to be the person who is being threatened to get sued or whatever.

00:27:06:02 – 00:27:26:02

Chris

I feel like that would be a great place to start. It’s a lot like you’re saying, Steve, like taking on a full film project or a TV project or, you know, even even taking on little bits of things here. And there can be a lot to handle as a composer because there’s a lot that goes into it that’s not music related at all, you know?

00:27:26:02 – 00:27:40:18

Chris

And if you haven’t really been in that world before and you’re pretty green in terms of Hollywood and how to navigate those types of relationships and conversations, it can be a little dicey.

00:27:40:19 – 00:27:43:13

Steve

Yeah, for me, the part of this question that.

00:27:43:13 – 00:27:50:18

Steve

I that I disagree with most is probably the fact that the opportunity for career growth is.

00:27:50:18 – 00:27:54:17

Steve

Severely stunted by being an assistant. I think that I think it’s.

00:27:54:17 – 00:28:21:11

Steve

Certainly, you know, I’ve known it to happen where people spend their entire career as an assistant composer and they never get a full you know, they never get a music by person credit on a project. But but they also make a decent living. You know, if they get if they get the cue sheet, if they get enough consistent work and they’re on a salary, that’s that’s supporting them and they can make a viable financial career out of it.

00:28:21:12 – 00:28:23:13

Steve

The the premise.

00:28:23:13 – 00:28:24:17

Steve

Of career growth.

00:28:24:18 – 00:28:50:16

Steve

Being stunted by that, I think is would be more about more up to them and their own values and what they want out of their career. If they want the glory and the spotlight and they want to be that person going in and negotiating and sitting with the director and making creative decisions versus if they want to be a person doing work that they enjoy and providing for their life and their family and whatever, whatever financial goals they have.

00:28:50:18 – 00:29:23:14

Steve

That’s of a widely personal a wildly personal thing to determine. You know, your value structure is completely up to you and whatever it is that you need to do in order to meet those values is is your responsibility. You know, quite frankly, and I think that is certainly I don’t want to discount this this question of because I think that there is a potential to get trapped in in, you know, the dead end, quote unquote, position of of being really low on the totem pole.

00:29:23:14 – 00:29:33:23

Steve

You know, if you spend if you spent 45 years as an intern at a studio, at a recording studio, kind of oops. But also, you know, that’s that’s that’s that’s kind of on you.

00:29:34:01 – 00:29:36:05

Steve

But it also shows.

00:29:36:07 – 00:29:57:23

Steve

That there is, you know, like like any industry, there’s you know, there’s the potential for not getting everything that you need or everything that you want from your employment situation. And you got to be able to make adjustments or have those conversations or ask for what you need or find a different situation that’s better suited. And that’s true in any industry.

00:29:57:23 – 00:30:11:19

Steve

You know, that’s not just true in creative fields. It’s, you know, you could you can you could work for an insurance company and find your career, your opportunities for career growth stunted. It’s not you know, that’s not unique to this to this world.

00:30:11:21 – 00:30:35:00

Mike

Yeah, that’s a good point. It’s kind of like it’s it’s better to you can have better success if you’ve kind of forged your own path. And I see there’s there’s definitely a temptation to want to like, you know, maybe change the system. And I think there’s that there’s always there’s always an opportunity to do something like that. But boy, is that hard, you know, to be like, it’s almost better to like, All right, let me see what I can do here.

00:30:35:00 – 00:30:45:07

Mike

What can I? I mean, I’m not very much about the independent American spirit here, okay? So I think that you’re going to be more successful if you can kind of think that way.

00:30:45:09 – 00:30:52:19

Chris

And it also kind of assumes that there is a path to take as a composer to be successful with it.

00:30:53:00 – 00:30:53:08

Mike

Right.

00:30:53:08 – 00:31:23:14

Chris

And there isn’t right. Like, it’s not it’s not like you go to medical school, you get your license, you become a doctor. You know, there’s no clear path to to success like in any creative industry, 90% of your success, if you if you experience it, is luck being in the right place at the right time with the right people and being prepared for that.

00:31:23:16 – 00:31:57:06

Chris

Right. Maybe 10% of it is how good you are or how much time you spend pursuing it. Some of the most talented driven musicians in the world will literally never, ever get an opportunity to do anything professionally and for the rest of their lives. You know, they’ll be sitting there playing because they love it. On the flip side of that, there are a lot of people who are very successful, who are famous musicians, who aren’t the most talented or even the most driven musicians in the world.

00:31:57:08 – 00:32:21:10

Chris

If you’re going to step into pursuing music as a career at the very, very baseline, you have to be doing music because you love it. You have to be willing to continue to do it. You know, it has to be one of those things where it’s like, I’m going to do this, whether or not I ever make a dime off of it, because I feel internally like I have to, you know, But there is no set path to success.

00:32:21:10 – 00:32:49:23

Chris

And so I don’t know. Does it portend the end of the industry or something like that, you know, or or does it sort of like narrow somebody’s chances of being successful in this industry? Your chances of being successful in this industry are already quite narrow. So just keep moving forward and just keep making music and just keep working on projects because you enjoy the creative process.

00:32:50:01 – 00:32:55:16

Mike

Yeah, I agree with you. And how do you increase your luck? It’s when preparation and meets opportunity.

00:32:55:18 – 00:32:56:13

Chris

Yeah.

00:32:56:15 – 00:33:13:04

Mike

Know the more prepared you are and if you get that sort of random opportunity that seems to come out of nowhere, if you’re prepared, you’re going to crush it. You know, sometimes when we see these brief sort of like, my gosh, why did that person get that gig? Or like, you know, good for them, I guess why?

00:33:13:06 – 00:33:35:07

Mike

Why them? You know, and I’m sure we’ve all thought that, but what I’ve what I’ve seen is that that that often there’s not a long standing thing. You don’t see them coming back and doing repeat things. You know, it’s sort of like the the people that I personally respect are the ones that are maybe a little bit there are a few tiers down below that, but they have these long careers and they they’re solid, they’re reliable.

00:33:35:07 – 00:33:50:05

Mike

They can go and you know, that they can accomplish exactly what’s needed. And so that’s that’s something that I think is really cool. So, yeah, I don’t know you can do because I think if you’re just hoping to be the one that just shoots off like a rocket, that’s not good, you know, that’s kind of like gambling.

00:33:50:07 – 00:33:53:21

Steve

Right? And I also I mean, I also agree with the premise that if that is what.

00:33:53:21 – 00:34:00:06

Steve

You’re looking for, being an assistant or being a ghostwriter is not is not the path that’s going to take you there.

00:34:00:06 – 00:34:06:18

Mike

Increasing your preparation so that when that opportunity comes and you do happen to strap onto a rocket ship.

00:34:06:20 – 00:34:07:03

Steve

Well, you’re.

00:34:07:03 – 00:34:09:00

Mike

More likely to stay there.

00:34:09:02 – 00:34:15:21

Steve

Yeah, it’s true. I mean, the better the better you are, the better chance you have of being in the right place at the right time.

00:34:15:23 – 00:34:18:14

Steve

But I also I think the heart of this question.

00:34:18:14 – 00:34:28:04

Steve

Is really about how the silent, invisible team are and how that how they are treated and how that. And so I think that’s that.

00:34:28:04 – 00:34:30:08

Steve

I think I mean, not to discount anything.

00:34:30:14 – 00:34:32:21

Steve

That we’ve said. I mean, I think that the we.

00:34:32:21 – 00:34:34:20

Mike

Tend to go off on tangents when we’re.

00:34:34:22 – 00:34:47:08

Steve

We do and that’s all right. That’s why that’s I mean, we asked for open ended questions. We did we didn’t we didn’t ask for, you know, can I, you know, make music? Yes, you can. Next question.

00:34:47:10 – 00:35:05:03

Mike

Yeah. I mean, there’s a lot of unfairness in the world. The world is messed up. We all know that. It’s been that way for thousands of years. And I don’t know, maybe I’ll get myself in trouble thinking that way. But you can’t just, like, just be negative and cynical and complain about things you have to eat, you know?

00:35:05:03 – 00:35:07:09

Mike

I don’t know. You got to be like, much more optimistic.

00:35:07:09 – 00:35:12:19

Steve

And I think I mean, I think it’s it’s two parts. I think I think one part is optimism and not not.

00:35:12:19 – 00:35:39:03

Steve

Being so defeatist about it. And I think that that is what leads to advocacy for for oneself. Yeah, I think that’s really the the the way this situation can be remedied. I think is it’s twofold. I mean, I think the agreement has to happen at all levels where the people who are on the team need to be empowered and feel like they can say, here’s what I need from this.

00:35:39:03 – 00:35:47:03

Steve

And the person putting the team together needs to be able to say, okay, well, I can meet you halfway here.

00:35:47:03 – 00:35:51:12

Steve

Or no, I think that there’s so much fear. I think that it’s the same kind of fear.

00:35:51:18 – 00:36:09:04

Steve

That, you know, as a composer submitting for a project, the fear that you’re not going to get the gig and they’re going to choose someone else. There’s that same kind of fear when you’re looking to become be part of a team of a composer that you know, you don’t want to work 23 hour days. Well, fine, I’ll find someone who will.

00:36:09:08 – 00:36:14:05

Steve

And I wish I was exaggerating, but like, that’s part of the reason that this question’s kind of poignant is.

00:36:14:05 – 00:36:14:13

Mike

Yeah.

00:36:14:17 – 00:36:16:02

Steve

Yeah. You know, I think, you know.

00:36:16:02 – 00:36:35:02

Mike

Well, again, I think that that’s hey, I know this discussion and there’s a lot of discussion about this. And I think that what we see are composers, creative people, and then all of a sudden they’re thrust into this situation where they have to be sort of operators of a business. And that’s a dangerous combination. And it’s hard to defend anybody.

00:36:35:02 – 00:36:53:06

Mike

But this is a problem amongst a lot of composers is like, crap, I have to like hire a team and I have to be like a boss and I have to deal with human beings like that, work for me. And that’s something that doesn’t come. It’s like a natural thing for people, especially if you’re like a crazy, you know, genius, you know?

00:36:53:08 – 00:37:12:20

Mike

And so, like, there’s definitely but there’s a yeah, there’s a lot of like, crazy bad stuff that happens as a result of that. You know, when you mix those two things together, which I’m not defending. Yeah, but it’s just like, you know, it’s this is a weird business. If you’re going to get into writing music for media, it’s not like getting a job at Chipotle or something.

00:37:12:20 – 00:37:15:05

Steve

Yeah, I mean, I think this is this is a good discussion to have.

00:37:15:05 – 00:37:26:17

Steve

Because it is it is an environment where a lot of people who are looking to get into the industry may find themselves at this. That’s this early stage in your composing career. You may be working in one of, you know.

00:37:26:18 – 00:37:32:16

Mike

A Yeah, I mean, stick up for you and stick up for yourself. You’re not going to you know, you’re going to be more respected if you do.

00:37:32:18 – 00:37:53:00

Chris

But also like so so what you were saying, Steve, about, you know, you’re not going to work 23 hours or whatever. Well, whether you’re working on someone’s team or you are the person in the hot seat or the sole person working on, especially if you’re the sole person working on a project, you’re going to be working those 23 hours.

00:37:53:05 – 00:38:17:18

Chris

Yeah, it’s at nine 5:00 in at 9:00. I mean, if I leave at five and go home and, you know, hang out. Yeah. Especially when you’re first starting out, you know, and you’re trying to make a name for yourself, you’re going to be grinding and you’re going to be grinding long hours. At least that’s from from my from my perspective, you know, even when I’m working on music, that’s my own music and grinding long hours.

00:38:17:18 – 00:38:43:10

Chris

I wake up at 5 a.m. and they don’t stop recording until 3 a.m., and then I go to sleep and they do it all again the next day. And I’m not saying that you should settle for that, but I’m saying that you figure out where that line is for yourself. You know, if you’re if you are working on somebody’s team and they’re pushing you super hard, figure out where that line is, where you’re actually learning kind of what it’s like to work in this industry.

00:38:43:10 – 00:39:08:09

Chris

And then, you know, we’re on the other side of that line. You’re actually being taken advantage of. And it can be really yeah, it can be a blurry line, but you have to be able to develop the skin that’s thick enough essentially to be successful in this industry, which might mean working like a full 24 hours sometimes. And it sucks, but it’s like, you know, especially if you’re in the hot seat and you want to be the hotshot composer.

00:39:08:11 – 00:39:10:19

Steve

And let’s say I mean, let’s talk quickly about the reason.

00:39:10:19 – 00:39:32:08

Steve

That that is necessary. It’s not just because the grind is glamorous. Like this is not this is not this is not an industry where it’s like, you guys, if you’re not working all the time, then you’re then you’re worthless. It’s because this is project based work. It’s it’s things that have to get done and there are deliverables that need to be completed by a deadline because that is part of a schedule that was set forth by.

00:39:32:13 – 00:39:34:19

Steve

Several level levels above.

00:39:34:19 – 00:40:03:18

Steve

Everyone. At the music level. There’s it’s the production company or the the distribution agreement that requires that these things are done at a certain time. Because if the if the music is not finished and the the episode of the show or the movie can’t ship or it’s going to ship without this important thing, that’s going to affect the bottom line of the of the the giant production companies that have hundreds of millions of dollars at stake.

00:40:03:21 – 00:40:05:20

Steve

So I know friends I have friends.

00:40:05:20 – 00:40:16:08

Steve

Who have been in these environments where the stress gets to the people and people get yelled at. People have their their competence questioned. They have their their you know.

00:40:16:10 – 00:40:18:04

Steve

People lose people lose their.

00:40:18:04 – 00:40:29:11

Steve

Decorum and act unprofessionally. It’s not a good thing. But it does happen. And let’s not let’s not sugarcoat that. And I think that’s where, you know, my my point about the advocacy for yourself and respect for.

00:40:29:11 – 00:40:30:21

Steve

Yourself, but also.

00:40:30:23 – 00:40:37:15

Steve

Balance that with what Chris said about developed a thicker skin and understand, you know, don’t take it personally. You know, when.

00:40:37:16 – 00:40:40:01

Steve

That way if someone’s getting if someone’s yelling at.

00:40:40:01 – 00:40:50:01

Steve

You because, you know, there’s there’s an incorrect font size on a rehearsal letter of of a score. You know, that’s not that’s not because you’re dumb, because.

00:40:50:01 – 00:40:51:15

Steve

There’s there’s a huge amount.

00:40:51:15 – 00:40:53:01

Steve

Of stress. And yeah.

00:40:53:03 – 00:41:14:14

Mike

That’s great advice. I think that’s that’s how you can summarize like if you ever feel like you’re being attacked or like, you know, it’s very likely the person that’s talking, you’ve got something going on. Yeah, very likely. This person is incredibly as on an incredibly high amount of stress. Yeah. And they’re just taking it out because again, like I said, they don’t know how to work, they don’t know how to work with people, most of them because it’s new maybe.

00:41:14:16 – 00:41:17:17

Mike

And so like they don’t think to like, just be the filter.

00:41:17:19 – 00:41:18:07

Chris

Yeah, right.

00:41:18:12 – 00:41:42:15

Mike

One composer that I work with, it was a joy. Well, Chris Leonard’s is one of them is amazing. He’s like the best, you know? And James Venable, years ago they had this this ability to, like, just be that s filter, if you will. You know what I mean? But you’re not always going to see that. So yeah, people should have their own if, you know, I you know, when I got married I was still getting calls from this one composer that was working those kind of 24 hour days.

00:41:42:15 – 00:41:58:19

Mike

And they’re like, You need to come here now and fix this computer, you know, or else I’m calling you again. And I was like, Ah, I’m not coming by, you know? And I hung up, right? And then I work. I ended up working for a different composer who was like more my speed, someone who valued family and that sort of thing.

00:41:58:19 – 00:42:12:12

Steve

So understand where your own boundaries are. And in this industry, I mean, it’s there’s a Winston Churchill quote, Success is not final failure. Failure is not fatal. It is the courage to continue that counts. And that’s yeah, very applicable.

00:42:12:12 – 00:42:13:13

Mike

Churchill demands.

00:42:13:18 – 00:42:15:18

Steve

Yeah.

00:42:15:20 – 00:42:17:18

Steve

Thanks for that question. Path got us.

00:42:17:20 – 00:42:20:18

Steve

Got a some lively discussion going so thank you for that.

00:42:20:20 – 00:42:31:21

Steve

Let’s go to one that’s a little bit more practical music question. This is from Chip who would like to see a tutorial about the best way to transition from different scenes.

00:42:31:21 – 00:42:32:16

Steve

For example, from.

00:42:32:16 – 00:42:34:03

Steve

A calm scene to a fast.

00:42:34:03 – 00:42:34:12

Steve

Paced.

00:42:34:12 – 00:42:39:21

Steve

Scene. And for me, this question sparks a good discussion about working.

00:42:39:21 – 00:42:49:04

Steve

With with directors and how to use music to follow drama. So, Mike, I’d love to hear your thoughts about not just scene transitions, but.

00:42:49:09 – 00:42:52:12

Steve

Following the story of the of the project.

00:42:52:12 – 00:42:55:01

Steve

With your music. What are your what are your tips for that?

00:42:55:04 – 00:43:01:06

Chris

Yeah, in previous video, did you guys watch that one? Yes, she had a specific problem. She had that specific specific problem.

00:43:01:06 – 00:43:06:08

Mike

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah. So a suspended cymbal will get you anywhere.

00:43:06:10 – 00:43:07:14

Steve

Yeah, that’s true.

00:43:07:15 – 00:43:21:11

Mike

Yeah. This is about tempo changes usually, you know, like you want to have a tempo change happen when there’s, like a hold or something. So it’s just like, easier. If you’re working with a live orchestra, it’s just easier than they can hear the new tempo and then all of a sudden you’re in the new tempo.

00:43:21:11 – 00:43:22:17

Steve

Yeah, that’s a good point.

00:43:22:19 – 00:43:25:22

Mike

Yeah, I don’t know. It’s all context dependent, right?

00:43:26:01 – 00:43:26:13

Steve

That’s What I.

00:43:26:18 – 00:43:28:15

Mike

That’s a very broad question. I know.

00:43:28:16 – 00:43:30:14

Steve

It is. So that’s I mean that’s what I was getting at.

00:43:30:14 – 00:43:34:09

Steve

Is that it’s all, it’s all about context. I think the.

00:43:34:11 – 00:43:37:18

Steve

The, the action of the scene and the drama of the.

00:43:37:18 – 00:43:40:06

Steve

Story will inform.

00:43:40:06 – 00:43:41:05

Steve

Most of this.

00:43:41:05 – 00:44:00:22

Steve

And so I think the best way to understand that is having a thorough conversation with the director, having having the spotting session, which is when you watch the project, watch the episode, the movie with the director, the producers, all of the decision makers, if you’re lucky, the music editor will be there too, if they’re already attached to the project.

00:44:01:00 – 00:44:01:17

Steve

And that’s.

00:44:01:17 – 00:44:02:13

Steve

That’s usually like a.

00:44:02:13 – 00:44:32:18

Steve

Full day, like a full, you know, 6 to 8 hours a day of watching the the movie a few times, watching it from from a few different starting points and really understanding intimately what the director’s intention is. And yeah, for I mean, for me, the best way to do that is to make sure you’re having a conversation about emotions that you want the audience to feel, not necessarily about specific musical ideas.

00:44:32:22 – 00:44:46:09

Steve

Like if you say the words suspended symbol in a in a in a sparring session, unless you’re director is also a musician. Yeah. Don’t do that. That’s that’s yeah some of that when I took a filmmaking course at the New York Film.

00:44:46:09 – 00:44:57:10

Steve

Academy a couple of years ago, and when the unit about about music came up, I had all, all my classmates were asking me for advice on this because they knew what I what I’m doing. And I told.

00:44:57:10 – 00:44:57:21

Steve

Them.

00:44:57:23 – 00:45:24:18

Steve

Unless you are a musician, like to the point where you could do your own score. Don’t try to communicate to your composer in musical terms because you’ll get confused. You’ll talk past each other. They will deliver you barbecue ribs when you ordered salmon, that’s that’s that. You know, you got to make sure that you’re speaking in more abstract terms that ironically make it more clear and help you understand, like focus on what you want the audience to feel.

00:45:24:22 – 00:45:39:18

Steve

And so from the composer’s perspective, focus on what the director wants the audience to feel. And moment by moment you’ll have your scene markers where you know, okay, we’re starting off calm, and then suddenly there’ll be, you know, you know, a tank.

00:45:39:18 – 00:45:40:12

Steve

Bursts through the.

00:45:40:12 – 00:45:47:03

Steve

Wall and now we’re in a chase scene and, you know, that’ll be pretty obvious when that when that sort of thing happens. Yeah.

00:45:47:08 – 00:46:05:01

Mike

The best thing is just watch movies, see what you’re. Yeah, see, see what people do, you know? I mean, it’s probably did to me but they, I mean we’re John Williams fans here. Okay. And there’s this great scene at the opening of Indiana Jones and The Last Crusade. It’s a young Indiana Jones and, you know, he’s basically young.

00:46:05:01 – 00:46:21:17

Mike

Indiana Jones is with his friends and everything. But it’s kind of like a like a long kind of calm cue. It’s like, you know, they show, look at this artifact. They’re just here, you know, and it’s like strings and everything. And then young Indiana Jones is in there, too, to sneak in to steal it. And the moment he picks it up, there’s this, like, staccato string thing.

00:46:21:20 – 00:46:48:19

Mike

He’s not moving anywhere. He’s not doing anything. But there’s this tense of like, you know, you know, kind of like movement. That’s a you know, that’s like, what’s going on? And he’s just looking at it. And then they start to slowly crawl out and the music is like going at this fast tempo. They crawl, they’re crawling out of the cave and then they jump out and then they get on the I don’t know if you guys remember that, but they then they get onto the train and then there’s that whole train sequence.

00:46:48:19 – 00:47:07:10

Mike

And that’s that’s where the music just is this nuts? It’s like so it’s like he kind of eludes to this huge chase scene that’s about to come when the kids are just like crawling in the dirt very slowly. It I don’t know. It’s stuff like that. It’s just like genius because there’s nothing on the screen that says there should be a faster paced music.

00:47:07:12 – 00:47:23:13

Mike

They’re like hinting towards like, something’s happening here. man, we’re about to start an adventure. You know, that’s John Williams is the genius. Jerry Goldsmith You know, these are the masters of this stuff. Watch as you watch what they’ve done.

00:47:23:18 – 00:47:55:00

Chris

Yeah. Film, film, composing. It’s such an interesting musical expression, right? Because, you know, a lot of composers develop and accumulate all of this technical skill and technical knowledge. But your main purpose in the project is not technical knowledge. Your main purpose in the project is storytelling. You’re working with the directors in your both working on telling a story, and you’re both using different tools to support telling the same story.

00:47:55:05 – 00:48:20:23

Chris

So Steve, what you were talking about, that thing that you said, like don’t talk to your composer in musical terms, talking emotions, talking vibes, feelings. What’s that? What’s the message? What’s the what do you want your audience to feel in this moment? Even as a composer, when you’re looking at something, you know, not asking what are what string sound would sound good here or you know, what articulation would be good here, Right?

00:48:20:23 – 00:48:21:16

Mike

Start, start.

00:48:21:16 – 00:48:48:16

Chris

With what’s the vibe? What what do I want the people who are watching this, what do I want them to feel? As much as my lack of technical knowledge has gotten in my way? In a lot of ways, I think that in this in this specific case, it actually helped me quite a bit because I you know, I never had the problem of how do I transition to this film from this vibe to this vibe?

00:48:48:18 – 00:49:04:04

Chris

Because I didn’t have it in my mind like, well, maybe, maybe this type of, you know, motif would help drive it or maybe a suspended cymbal, or maybe it was like it was all about feeling, right? What is this? What’s the feeling here?

00:49:04:04 – 00:49:05:03

Mike

Yeah, exactly.

00:49:05:07 – 00:49:30:18

Chris

And going and finding, even if it’s just one sound that communicates that feeling and makes the audience feel that. And so, yeah, I think you’re composing music for film is a really interesting dance because you’re trying to do something with your skill that’s not necessarily about your skill. You’re using your skill to do something that’s kind of unrelated to your skill, but you’re telling the same story, you know what I mean?

00:49:30:18 – 00:49:33:04

Chris

It’s yeah, yeah, it’s an interesting thing for sure.

00:49:33:04 – 00:49:57:18

Mike

What’s it. Yeah, it’s a, it’s a lot of intuition, but I think it’s important, you know, our brains are like the ultimate elm, you know, it’s this machine learning, and the more, the more data that you can train this computer with, the better the outcome will be. So the more you can, the more you can study, the more you can, you know, just analyze what other people have done.

00:49:57:20 – 00:50:05:15

Mike

Then you’ve got more of this sort of bag of tricks that you can choose from. Just sort of intuitively it’ll just come out in the moment. Yeah.

00:50:05:16 – 00:50:09:05

Chris

But you have to internalize that bag of tricks in a way that it comes out.

00:50:09:10 – 00:50:18:09

Mike

In a way that not like, Well let me get all like nerdy about it. It’s, this is happening in this scene, therefore I will do this court in this court like never should be like that.

00:50:18:15 – 00:50:19:19

Chris

It’s like exactly.

00:50:19:19 – 00:50:32:06

Mike

Somehow in our brains, we just know we see the visual and there’s like this you feel it and you kind of just know what to do. And that comes from like people that have studied a lot or just have done it a lot.

00:50:32:12 – 00:50:57:19

Chris

Yeah, yeah. I think doing it a lot is a really good thing, watching a lot of movies, doing it a lot, messing around with it too, because you might watch a bunch of movies where John Williams might be the master of making these transitions, but you might actually do it differently in a way that’s unique to you. You know, maybe if you try and do what John Williams did to transition from a slow paced scene to a fast paced scene, because you’re the person doing it, it won’t work in the same way.

00:50:57:19 – 00:51:12:13

Mike

It won’t because you’re right, you’re emulating someone else because he’s making those choices based off of his machine learning algorithm. Example from his days of, you know, playing in the CBS orchestra in the forties and whatever, you know. Yeah. Wrestling your.

00:51:12:13 – 00:51:14:13

Chris

Own ways. Yeah, I know. And wants to.

00:51:14:13 – 00:51:15:22

Mike

Do it right.

00:51:16:00 – 00:51:22:02

Steve

Yeah. I think that that’s really all it comes down to because the other thing is when you’re composing music.

00:51:22:02 – 00:51:48:18

Steve

For media, I mean you mentioned earlier, Chris is really it’s a supporting role and ultimately we’re all in service of the story. And that’s true with the directors too. Like they’re choosing certain camera angles, they’re choosing who’s included in what shot, they’re choosing how long it stays on a certain shot. And all of that is about how the audience should feel, whatever it is that you do compositionally, it’s going to either work.

00:51:48:20 – 00:51:51:01

Steve

It’s going to work on a certain level.

00:51:51:01 – 00:52:13:02

Steve

Or it’s not. And there’s a lot of ways that you can hone that a little bit more. One of the one of the most important ones is use of themes. And if you have how as a composer, you use themes, whether it’s you have a theme for a specific character or if you have a theme for a certain event that happens in the movie.

00:52:13:02 – 00:52:47:13

Steve

And by theme I mean a melodic idea or some some type of musical idea that that recurs as you, as different things in the movie happen over and over. And being able to change that, that theme, whether you make it faster or slower or played on different instruments or better, or if it’s specific type of sound, like something for like example, Dune, you know, a lot of that soundtrack is less about melody and harmony and rhythm than it is about the sonic texture of what you’re actually hearing, the way that the instruments sound in the way that they were crafted.

00:52:47:13 – 00:53:03:10

Steve

A lot of, you know, through a lot of sound design, then that’s that that goes back, you know, way farther than that. I mean, the Made in the Matrix, the sound of the water phone, the the that unique instrument that’s bold metal sound that gives you all those eerie high pitched tones.

00:53:03:12 – 00:53:08:11

Mike

Chris will air that sound right now.

00:53:08:13 – 00:53:10:21

Steve

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yes.

00:53:10:23 – 00:53:12:10

Chris

yeah. I think I have it somewhere.

00:53:12:15 – 00:53:18:08

Steve

Yeah. Just let it up on music, water, phone, parentheses. Wet a sea for us.

00:53:18:10 – 00:53:44:08

Chris

Yeah. No, I think, I think that’s a good that’s a that’s a really good point, Steve. And I guess the thing that I would say is try not to approach it from the standpoint of writing music, try to approach it from the standpoint of painting a picture using sound like you are, you are painting a sonic landscape and you’re using the medium of music or sound to do that.

00:53:44:10 – 00:54:08:22

Chris

And however, however or whatever, you’re, you know, bringing your own personal style to that, obviously. But you need to internalize the mechanisms of creating music so much that when you’re coming to something as a as you’re trying to sort of paint the sonic landscape, you can say, I want this texture and you can sort of arrange the music in a way to create that texture or that vibe or that feeling.

00:54:09:00 – 00:54:09:15

Chris

You know.

00:54:09:17 – 00:54:10:13

Steve

Something else I think.

00:54:10:13 – 00:54:21:18

Steve

Is important that kind of ties into a lot of what not only this this episode so far, but the previous episode on the subject of of relationships and working with directors and all of that as.

00:54:21:18 – 00:54:23:17

Steve

Composers who are writing.

00:54:23:17 – 00:54:38:04

Steve

For specific media, whether it’s film, TV, video games, theme parks. Mike There are so many places in which in what we call incidental music, music that is used for a purpose to support something.

00:54:38:06 – 00:54:40:07

Steve

There are so many potential applications.

00:54:40:07 – 00:55:08:14

Steve

For it that go beyond just music to listen to, which is the world we live in. You know, used to be, you know, a couple hundred years ago, the only way to experience music was to hear a musician play it. And either either be the musician playing it or go to a performance of a musician playing it. And now music is such a significant part of so much that we do, whether it’s, you know, even art installations or things like that.

00:55:08:16 – 00:55:10:20

Steve

I think that one of the most valuable things that you.

00:55:10:20 – 00:55:23:20

Steve

As a composer can do is develop your understanding of the medium for which you want to compose as much as you possibly can if you want to. If you want to be a film composer, you better understand film. But, you know, take.

00:55:24:00 – 00:55:26:02

Steve

Take some classes or.

00:55:26:04 – 00:56:09:23

Steve

You know, watch some YouTube videos or learn, read some articles about cinematography and learn about the techniques of of how filmmakers put things together and and the ways in which the conventions for that medium are designed. And, you know, the reason that things are chosen, because one of the things that I learned in my in my knife of class was how intentional every single thing about what happens in a film or TV show is everything that’s there on screen is there on purpose and chosen for a specific reason that is in support of the story, the way it’s lit, how dark or bright it is, what colors are included, how much material is in the

00:56:09:23 – 00:56:37:19

Steve

background, what exactly is in each frame. Every single thing that you see is there on purpose. And if it’s not there, they’ll either remove it in editing or leave people guessing. You know, why is that included? But in a professional context, it’s always there on purpose. So understanding that and knowing how to mirror that with your music and how to make sure that everything that’s included in your composition is there for a purpose.

00:56:37:21 – 00:56:38:22

Steve

Oftentimes less is.

00:56:38:22 – 00:56:57:22

Steve

More. You know, you might not necessarily, especially in the modern world, when when a lot of the media that’s getting made is stuff for YouTube and things that are not going to have giant CGI budgets and other things to require a big, complex, dramatic orchestration.

00:56:58:00 – 00:57:28:05

Mike

All right. So can I can I add a question? Can I mailbag? Can I add a question to the mailbag? Yes. Yeah. So we’ve obviously we’ve been following Sara. We just saw the news and not to be do more, but we saw the news from Tyler Perry. We know the producer. Yes. Many like big movies. He has ended the production or the creation of his $800 million movie studio that he’s not going to be doing now specifically as a result of seeing these videos.

00:57:28:06 – 00:57:43:18

Mike

So we’ve seen really high quality videos. I saw 11 Labs actually used their tools to add sound design to these things, but I haven’t seen perhaps thankfully, is that music is still thing that is not being done.

00:57:43:20 – 00:57:44:14

Chris

Right.

00:57:44:16 – 00:58:11:01

Mike

Yet. How what is your guy’s opinion? What does it look like, you know, for the future? Like, does the future look like I mean, this stuff is amazing. The sort of videos are like, it blew my mind. I just saw them recently. It’s still going to need good music and all of the music stuff that I’ve heard handles things like EDM fairly well, you know, the stuff that has like a beat to it.

00:58:11:01 – 00:58:28:06

Mike

It’s more electronic, but like, quote, cinematic and orchestral music. I haven’t heard good examples of and maybe maybe we’re safe from that for now. What do you think, Steve ramble about this subject.

00:58:28:09 – 00:58:30:07

Chris

Yeah, back I.

00:58:30:07 – 00:58:34:00

Steve

Yeah well hey, that’s where we’re at right now It’s yeah.

00:58:34:05 – 00:59:09:21

Chris

I feel like Tyler Perry shutting down his $800 million film studio was maybe a little premature. Yes, the clips from Sora are amazing, especially considering the fact that they were generated by AI. Yeah, but at least to me, and I don’t know about you guys when I was watching them, it’s almost kind of like watching like a parody of like there’s this weird sort of uncanny valley parody, unrealistic thing about it.

00:59:09:21 – 00:59:31:07

Chris

And I’m not sure I like I think that this, this technology with Sora will be really great for, you know, advertising and really great for those mediums. It will probably use it quite a bit, you know what I mean? To to generate video footage for our website and that kind of stuff. Like I could see it being useful there.

00:59:31:09 – 00:59:59:03

Chris

I don’t necessarily see it. I don’t I don’t see computers fully being able to like, emulate the human quality of art and creation because they haven’t been able to like even the more manual like computer technology that’s that’s far more advanced or it’s had more time to develop than AI and it’s been around for a long time. Live sampled orchestras.

00:59:59:05 – 01:00:29:11

Chris

You know what I mean? Sample libraries. They still don’t they still don’t necessarily replace the feeling of having a live orchestra play your music. And so you know, it’s and sample libraries have been around for they’ve been an industry standard for a long time for mockups and even for scores. But I know that that doesn’t answer your question as far as like what the what the future of music looks like in this world that we’re in and and the music that maybe needs to be created for these sort of videos and that kind of thing.

01:00:29:11 – 01:00:39:22

Chris

But. Right. I was just surprised to hear that Tyler Perry shut down his studio and I think that that was done. Yeah, there must have been other reasons.

01:00:39:22 – 01:00:44:13

Mike

Yeah. Listen, when I ran into you, I was like, maybe you’re just using Sora as the excuse.

01:00:44:13 – 01:00:45:19

Chris

An excuse.

01:00:45:21 – 01:00:48:11

Steve

Basically. And I don’t want to necessarily.

01:00:48:12 – 01:00:49:06

Mike

Who knows, right?

01:00:49:09 – 01:01:09:02

Steve

But who does? So if I had $800 million, I might be a little bit more a little bit more cautious about deploying it in that after seeing that. But I don’t know. I don’t have $800 million, so that’s a moot point. I when I first saw the saw videos, my my first thought was, cool, I’m going to use this for scoring practice.

01:01:09:04 – 01:01:18:04

Steve

Yeah. I mean, I’m going to use this to generate a bunch of little one minute videos that I’m going to take an afternoon to just kind of keep my chops sharp and make sure that I.

01:01:18:04 – 01:01:22:04

Steve

Can I can do dramatic music for a scene like this.

01:01:22:09 – 01:01:35:03

Steve

I could use this for a proof of concept. That’s that’s to me, all that it really is going to do. And, you know, I’ve, I said and I think I think in our episode I said I think I said that my my gut tells me that the.

01:01:35:03 – 01:01:45:03

Steve

Consumer, the average consumer will go and see one, maybe two AA generated feature films for the novelty and then lose interest.

01:01:45:05 – 01:02:23:12

Chris

I don’t I just don’t think it’ll get that far. I think that I think that Sora and these things will be able to create, you know, really, really, really great pharmaceutical ads. I don’t think it’s going to make Dances with Wolves, you know what I mean? It’s just because there’s so there’s so many things, as we as you were just talking about, Steve, like the intentionality of everything that’s in a feature film, there are very human decisions made from a lot of different angles the lighting, the the positioning of the camera, the script, the scenes, like what’s what, why is the scene here?

01:02:23:13 – 01:02:48:08

Chris

How is that moving the story? If there’s if the scene doesn’t move the story forward in some way, shape or form, you need to remove that. You know, there are all of these different choices from the gaffers to the cinematographer to the director, to the actors, all of these different human choices that go into making a film. It’s a very complex machine, organic machine that happens in that in that creative space.

01:02:48:10 – 01:02:56:13

Chris

I don’t think I just I don’t know. I don’t think it’s something that can be distilled down to like ones and zeros very easily.

01:02:56:15 – 01:03:06:11

Mike

I hear you I area and I hope that’s okay with you. I like my hope is cynical as Yeah, I know more pharmaceutical ads period but that’s.

01:03:06:12 – 01:03:12:18

Steve

I mean yeah that’d be nice to know. I agree. I think that there’s a lot of a lot of.

01:03:12:18 – 01:03:15:20

Steve

Doom and gloom around A.I., but I think that, as you know.

01:03:15:20 – 01:03:18:14

Steve

As we’ve said, the creative process.

01:03:18:14 – 01:03:24:11

Steve

Is the part that’s enjoyable and the machines can’t replace that. You know, people are.

01:03:24:12 – 01:03:26:04

Steve

And if we want to, you know, if we want to.

01:03:26:04 – 01:03:37:11

Steve

Just be blunt about it, there’s already enough media. There’s already more movies and TV shows and songs to listen to than anyone can listen to or watch in their in their lifetime.

01:03:37:13 – 01:03:37:22

Mike

yeah.

01:03:37:22 – 01:03:40:04

Steve

And people and people try, you know.

01:03:40:09 – 01:03:47:12

Steve

This is the world we live in has got a lot of people trying to make it through, you know, what was that tweet that I saw that said, I finished YouTube, I saw.

01:03:47:12 – 01:03:50:11

Steve

Everything I’m done now.

01:03:50:13 – 01:03:57:06

Steve

Which, you know, that’s not going to happen. You know, there’s already. And the fact that we’re, what.

01:03:57:07 – 01:04:09:16

Steve

20 years plus into YouTube being a thing that has and people are still making videos of the same type, you know, And it’s evolved. It’s changed. It’s it’s.

01:04:09:18 – 01:04:13:06

Steve

There are trends that have risen and fallen, but people continue to do.

01:04:13:06 – 01:04:23:22

Steve

It. And people do it for fun. People do it for their hobby, for their for their connection with their community. And, you know, so as a way to meet new people and.

01:04:24:00 – 01:04:24:14

Steve

They’re not all.

01:04:24:14 – 01:04:31:17

Steve

Thinking about it as a way to advance their professional career, they’re not all thinking about it as a way that something that they’re going to monetize. And I.

01:04:31:17 – 01:04:32:03

Steve

Think that a.

01:04:32:03 – 01:04:44:09

Steve

Lot of the fear around the AI media generation is that it’s going to start stealing market share from from, you know, the people who do monetize these things.

01:04:44:11 – 01:05:11:13

Mike

I think it’s easier. It’s like what’s going to be true now? That’s going to be true in ten years. It’s going to be true in 50 years. And there’s there’s a novelty about being too about like human endeavor, like doing cool things, like humans doing cool things and watching it and being like, that’s amazing, right? Even if it’s like watching we’re talking about solving Rubik’s cubes, you know, or just watching somebody play the violin at an exceptional level, watching somebody cook a meal.

01:05:11:15 – 01:05:23:07

Mike

Like there’s something really cool about a human doing it. It’s like impressive. And we want to watch that. I think that that might actually become more impressive the further into this A.I. crap we get into, right?

01:05:23:13 – 01:05:23:17

Chris

Yeah.

01:05:23:18 – 01:05:39:22

Mike

Yeah. And those people will stand apart even more vividly. I think so. Like, you know, I think there’s going to be movies we’re going to have our own custom Hollywood movie. Just write a prompt and be like, I want to watch a movie starring Harrison Ford and Tom Cruise and, you know.

01:05:40:00 – 01:05:40:12

Steve

Yeah.

01:05:40:14 – 01:05:46:06

Mike

And but, but it’s like, it’ll just be this fun thing that’s like, yeah, it’s entertaining. Bah bah.

01:05:46:06 – 01:05:47:10

Chris

Bah bah. Yeah.

01:05:47:12 – 01:05:54:12

Mike

I still will want to go to the theater and see something that’s crafted by a talented person who’s devoted their life. I don’t know right now.

01:05:54:12 – 01:06:23:23

Chris

I agree with you. I mean, like when you go to an art museum, a big part of what makes that art so pleasant to look at is the fact that a person made it. Because you’re looking at that and you’re going, Wow, this is beautiful. What a realistic painting or what a wild idea. And the but it’s all based on the idea that somebody painted that and made that if it was all a generated art, you’d go, okay, that’s cool.

01:06:24:01 – 01:06:49:16

Chris

All right, that’s cool. Like, it would all lose its impact in that way, right? I honestly I honestly think that that I generated art. It is a really big buzz right now because it’s new, because it’s novel, because it’s, you know, this this new paradigm and we’re messing around with it and we all like to go on mid journey and type in prompts and see what comes out.

01:06:49:18 – 01:07:11:10

Chris

And I think that that’s cool, that’s fine. I also think it’s going to fizzle out at a certain point. I really do, because I think that generated art is going to find its place within the creative community. And yes, it will. It will displace some jobs. It absolutely already has, you know. Yeah, there yeah, there are people who who, you know, film far too far.

01:07:11:10 – 01:07:57:04

Chris

MIT pharmaceutical pharmaceutical ads, you know, who you know, if these pharmaceutical companies can just, you know, generate an ad of people looking happy on a sailboat taking, you know, whatever pharmaceutical they’re taking, they won’t need to hire those crews of people. And yeah, so there will be some job displacement, but I don’t think it will necessarily be on the scale that we’re all worried about because I think it’ll settle into its place within the creative industry and the pieces of air that we’re going to find sort of most ubiquitous are the pieces that are maybe a little bit less sexy than Saura, you know, a little bit more like two or heavy help you, help

01:07:57:04 – 01:08:00:15

Chris

you do your job a little bit more efficiently kind of thing. Yeah.

01:08:00:16 – 01:08:03:16

Steve

I mean, I could see I think the other thing is that when.

01:08:03:16 – 01:08:38:18

Steve

New tools like this come out, people take it almost as a challenge to find the ways to use it in a way that is hard and use it and use it in a way that is impressive, that, you know, someone could could use mid journey to generate frame by frame a stop motion, you know, film. I wouldn’t put it past someone to do that for the sake of, you know, running that marathon and creating something really substantial that that requires a lot of effort and and creative endeavor for the sake of doing the creative endeavor.

01:08:38:18 – 01:08:42:06

Steve

And that’s what we’re talking about, is people will always want to make those.

01:08:42:08 – 01:08:44:08

Steve

There are still there are still composers who write.

01:08:44:11 – 01:09:05:22

Steve

Pencil and paper and then learn it on piano and then do the mock up one instrument at a time. And that’s great. There have been a lot of studies showed that. That shows how when you write things down by hand, when you’re taking notes in class or when you’re doing something when you’re drawing or writing a manuscript, yes, you remember it better be for several reasons.

01:09:05:22 – 01:09:22:08

Steve

One is that there’s a it takes longer. So so you’re spending more time with the thought and with the idea. And so you’re committing it to memory more. But there’s also a physical action that your brain remembers, too. So, yeah, I mean, that’s another one. When you’re doing your orchestration practice user use a big.

01:09:22:08 – 01:09:23:08

Steve

Physical pencil and.

01:09:23:08 – 01:09:29:00

Steve

Paper and you’ll and you’ll get farther. Just write out the voice leading that way. It’ll be, you know, you’ll learn more.

01:09:29:06 – 01:09:34:15

Chris

And the operative word in that being big. So make sure it’s a giant pencil that you have to hold, which I am.

01:09:34:17 – 01:09:39:12

Steve

Yeah, it’s one of those. Yes, one of those comically. Yeah.

01:09:39:14 – 01:09:40:17

Mike

I’ll never forget it. Yeah.

01:09:40:21 – 01:09:42:08

Steve

Yeah, exactly.

01:09:42:10 – 01:09:45:13

Chris

That took me 5 hours.

01:09:45:15 – 01:09:51:16

Steve

To write four bars of the good old days.

01:09:51:18 – 01:09:58:01

Mike

Well, I hope the techno optimists are right that the future is going to be this utopian society. You know, people are.

01:09:58:06 – 01:10:00:23

Chris

I don’t I don’t think utopian societies.

01:10:01:01 – 01:10:02:21

Steve

And I don’t think it’s going to happen.

01:10:02:23 – 01:10:23:06

Mike

Yeah, but, you know, there’s a vision of the future by a lot of these folks on Twitter that’s, you know, flying cars and sort of spaceship looking buildings and, you know, wherever like people are and having to do mundane jobs anymore. And we’ll just all be, you know, being artists and being creative and writing music and just living in this awesome utopia.

01:10:23:08 – 01:10:24:23

Mike

That sounds awesome to me, Although.

01:10:24:23 – 01:10:26:12

Steve

It sounds great. Yeah.

01:10:26:13 – 01:10:47:14

Mike

Although any time humans are involved, I doubt that you know, But like, I think we’re always going to want to be creative. I know that that’s like a true thing, right? Ten years from now, 50 years from now, and I think we’re, you know, we’re always going to want to hear what humans have to make. I think that’s our conclusion.

01:10:47:16 – 01:10:49:18

Chris

I’m proud of us guys. That’s good.

01:10:49:19 – 01:10:55:23

Steve

Only takes, what, 3 hours? Yeah. I mean.

01:10:56:00 – 01:11:00:00

Mike

I don’t know what that people saying. Yeah. Do like mailbag number three and just more questions.

01:11:00:04 – 01:11:00:16

Steve

Open up.

01:11:00:16 – 01:11:02:05

Steve

Absolutely questions. Yeah.

01:11:02:07 – 01:11:04:04

Chris

Yeah, whatever want to ask. Yeah.

01:11:04:06 – 01:11:08:03

Mike

I think every episode always ask, how do you make money out of music? We’ll try our best to answer that.

01:11:08:08 – 01:11:21:13

Chris

I wish there was some kind of, like, physical process that you could literally make money out of music. That would be cool if there was like some kind of machine that you could just cram your music into. And then now the other side might.

01:11:21:15 – 01:11:23:14

Steve

Be, yeah, that would be cool.

01:11:23:16 – 01:11:49:17

Chris

Well, good job, guys, and thank you all for listening. I hope I hope that we had something of value to share with you guys and answered your questions in a way that was helpful for you. If you have any questions about music, whether it’s about creating music, the music industry, making money, which is I guess kind of the same thing or MUZIO anything write us that orchestrated at MUZIO dot com.

01:11:49:21 – 01:12:06:14

Chris

And if you guys like this episode and you want to hear more like it, please share it, read it, review it. Every rating, every review is helpful. And also we just like to know how guys are enjoying it. Thank you guys for listening and we will catch you next time.